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Sheets: Randy Fairbanks is an engineer for AT&T and an amateur meteorologist, and lives at 162nd. I took these pictures down there. This is Randy Fairbanks. He had a wind instrument located at his house, properly exposed, at essentially the ten meter level,thirty foot level. This is what happened to the back of his house. And around himthese are the buildings around him he measured his instrument read 212. But when we calibrated a similar instrumenthis blew away, obviously that was between 170 and 180. We actually got three of those instruments from that manufacturer, sent them up to Virginia Tech to the wind tunnel, and spun them up until they failed. The first one failed and read 207, but it was really 170 to 180, because the instrument
Provenzo: So that gives you a really firm reading. Sheets: So we know that it was in excess of that because it was stronger afterwards. Now, opening the window: he explained how the pressure on his ears of the buildup in the house when this storm was going by, and how it built up. And I had told him before he described it to me, what happened, because he thought the same thing: opening the window on the lee side of the building was going to be the answer to this. And I said when the pressure really got to you, was when the front, facing the wind, started to fail. Yeah, that was it, because the air was in the building, so you had the ram pressure in the building itself. And now at that stage, as it’s just about ready to fail, the double entrance doors, that was a big one. Where the double entrance doors that open in that are very weak. And so those were frequently failed. Garage doorsand they’d fail, and in comes the wind. But when the front is about to fail, then you want to make sure you let the air through the house, otherwise the roof and so on comes off. And he said indeed, as soon as he released the pressure on the other side of the house, by opening the windows on the other side of the house, then the pressure dropped immediately. Well, that was a ram pressure, with the wind coming into the house. And it might even be before you have substantial openings, because there’s enough flow around these doors and so on, that you’ve got ram pressure coming into that building. And there’s no way out, in a sense; it’s coming in, forced in. He had it actually up here came through, and these windows here failed too, on the back side of his house. So, there are many of those kinds of things that took place. Provenzo: What happened with her, I think, was that they were having some real difficulty in one part of the house, and they opened up a door that had been shut to the living room; and the living room had the double doors, just like you’re talking about, and when she opened that door Sheets: then the double doors opened up. That’s exactly it. See, what that is, is what I was talking about in the front wall where the wind, on the wind side of the building, there’s the most likely place of failure, is there, and the corner of the building, and the roof. Because the wind is flowing around the corner, you create a suction on the outside edge of the building. So if this is the outside edge of the building, the wind is going like this (indicates with his hands). The primary force is right here; it’s not here (indicates). There’s a force here trying to push it in. Provenzo: So it’s a Bernoulli Effect coming around? Sheets: Yes, exactly right. On this side, here, you have a force against the wall. And buildings are designed to resist a force against the wall, from the outside. Of course it can exceed that, and then this will fail. But the force coming here is actually a Bernuly effect, the suction that takes place here, the wing of the airplane. And so it actually just pulls this corner up. I’ve got slide series that I’ve taken in various hurricanes where the corner of the house, the upper corner, just started to come apart. And then I’ve got another slide where it was a brick veneer. The brick is gone; the inside wall is still there. So it clearly was a force acting on the exterior skin of the building; it had nothing to do with the pressure inside the building. And then I’ve got another series from the hurricane actually where the whole corner is pulled off. And this happened right here in our own building. We had shutters all the way around on our floor. And on that northwest corner over there, the wind was coming from, essentially like this, (indicates), and it literally pulled the window out behind the shutter; so the window failed. It sucked it right out and glass broke behind the shutter. It had nothing to do with pressure in the building; it was a force acting on the exterior skin of the building. Provenzo: This would be very valuable, and it’s repeating some ground we’ve already covered, but without the tape recorder going. We’ll have a section in the book that basically describes what happened to Baldwin, this family. On the issue of cracking a window, could you just, maybe we could get a quote from you to have people avoid doing the wrong thing in the future. Sheets: I think here, the old philosophy that the old timers had and still a lot of them like to argue with me about this is that they always learned to open a window on the lee side of the building when a hurricane was present. The idea was, the thinking wasjust like in tornado country and hurricane countrythat when the hurricane, being a low pressure system, or the tornado, being a low pressure system, moved across the house, the pressure outside the building was lowered so rapidly that the air inside the building tried to escape, because it was high pressure inside. And as a result, the building exploded. That’s not what happens. It’s really the Bernuly effect, either over the roof, around the corners, and that’s where the failures happen. They don’t happen in the middle of the wall, for instance. If it’s going to explode, they’re going to happen in the weakest part, and that’s the middle of the wall. Provenzo: So what does the Bernoulli Effect do? Sheets: The Bernoulli Effect is just like the wind flowing across the wing of a 747. As the air accelerates over the top of the wing, the airplane is lifted. It is not lifted from air flowing under the wing; but it’s the acceleration of the wind over the top of the air flow, the wing of the airplane. And so the airplane flies as a result of the low pressure that’s created on the top surface of the wing. The wing doesn’t explode. It has nothing to do with the pressure inside the wing. It’s a force acting on the exterior skin of the wing which then lifts the airplane. The same thing is true in the building, whether it’s the corner of the building or the roof of the building. There are optimum slopes of roofs, for instance. There is a slope of about one in three where that’s almost an optimum slope so that the wind on the windward side of the roof is actually exerting a little bit of a downward force on the roof itself because it’s blowing there, not trying to lift it up. Now as it accelerates across the top of the roof, it creates an uplift on the backside of the roof. That’s where the uplift and that’s where the failure occurs is on the backside. It creates an uplift there. But with a one in three slope, there’s enough slope coming down that it has a fairly large area that’s able to suck the air from, so to speak. But if it’s a flat roof, then you’ve got problems. The flat roof, indeed, as the air flows across the roof itself, creates an uplift; and that’s the worse condition, is a flat roof. The things that we saw: mansard roofs, for instance. As you look out here at these apartment complexes, you look at mansard roofs. That indeed creates an uplift as it comes across there. It’s flat on top. The houses that failed in the Niranja Lakes area, were mansard roofs. Many of them were mansard roofs. As a result, it picked up the tie beams and all. The whole roof was picked up with the tie beam attached to it. And again, it was because of the force on top of the roof, the lifting that took place on top of the roof. So there’s a lot of those that occurred here in this hurricane. Provenzo: That’s terrific. You mentioned before that there is a point when you should crack a window or a door. When is that? Sheets: Yeah. First of all, if you’re going to be in a house where hurricanes are going to be, you want to make sure that you have covers all the way around your house. And if you’re able to maintain the covers on the windows in your house, then you’re going to suffer much less damage than anyone else, because you maintained the internal integrity of that building. Howeveras happened with a lot of people with double entrance doors, or garage doors that failed, glass that debris hitif the front wall the wind side of the building, is about to be pierced in some way, either an open door or whatever that’s going to take place, then you get ram pressure, air inside the house. That air has to go somewhere. In most cases, where it was totally closed, it broke up in the front side of the house, in the wind side of the house, and then goes up through the ceiling because that’s the weak component; there’s very little resistance to force there. And then off comes the sheeting on the roof; and then the whole thing is opened up. The best thing to do at that stage, if it’s about ready to fail, is indeed open every window, door that you can on the lee side of the building to let the air through the building. Break out the windows, whatever you have to do, to open that. So let the air through the building, and then you will have a good chance of keeping your roof and maybe even keeping your interior walls, because there’s enough flow around through the interior of the house through the open doors and all that, so you want to let it through. Provenzo: Purely personal question: we live over in the Gables, very close to here. We have an attic and we were in the hallway. There was so much pressure in the house that the attic door was lifting up and going up and down. I didn’t know whether to push that off or to leave it Sheets: No, no. Indeed that’s one thing you want to do. If you have the entrance way to the attic, what you want to do is to seal up the outside of your house with covers and so on, and then take the entrance to the attic and set it aside. Provenzo: And set it aside? Sheets: Leave it open. Because there will be some air flowing through the roof, inside with the venting system that’s in there. That’s probably what was happening there. Provenzo: This thing was popping up and down and I wasn’t sure whether to Sheets: Well it was probably sucking air out of the attic itself, because of the venting that takes place around there. And also, there is enough leakage in the house, even with it covered, that you were getting a little bit of ram pressure inside the house just from the leakage around the windows on the wind side of the house. So that would also create a little bit of that. But probably the lifting of that was more of this other effect that I was talking about through the vents that are there. But some could have been from this little bit of ram pressure. So indeed that will create a little bit of a downward force on the roof, so it does help to maintain the roof, very slight. Markoff: What kind of covering do you recommend on the windows? Sheets: Well, of course you can have commercial shutters. There are well designed commercial shutters that can be used. Personally, I had plywood. If it’s well installed, plywood is one of the best materials you can use. If you get a half inch plywood, it has a tremendous resistance to debris. A lot of the aluminum shutters, for instance, were torn up by tile that came flying through the air. In my area the tile was flying and all of my covers, which were plywood, stayed on the windows in the house. I had problems on my patio and the full sheets of plywood that covered the sliding glass doors, where they were literally sucked off the house. But fortunately, that occurred after the onforce, where the winds were directly on that with all the debris that was coming through there. Pieces of concrete tile and everything else was all over that. The whole thing failed back in that area as far as the screen and all of that. So there was all that kind of debris there. So apparently my plywood covers remained intact on those sliding glass doors as long as it had the wind onto those. But then as it shifted, as the eye wall came by, then the wind shifted eastwest; it had been out of the northeast originally; then it shifted eastwest, and then it got the Bernoulli Effect which actually sucked those off. And even literally opened one of those sliding doors by about this much (indicates). Slid open! It had some of the debris inside, but none of the doors broke. Provenzo: What is your advice for the best way to protect a sliding door? Sheets: Again, there are commercial shutters that can be utilized, and are quite good. For individuals, one of the things I’m always asked is ’what kind of shutters or cover should I get?” I always say, ’one you can put up”; that’s the key element. Certainly if you’re an eighty year old widow, then you’re not going to be out there putting up plywood. And you can’t rely one your son who lives...whatever, or somebody else that’s not going to be in the area to help you. So you need to do one that you can handle yourself and not going to have to rely on other people to do that. Again, plywood is quite good. It has to be reinforced. There are attachments. I’m redesigning mine to make sure that I don’t have the failures due to the Burnully effect. Provenzo: I used light bolts on mine. Sheets: Light blots are what I normally use. What you want to do is design as best you can where for the system to come off, it has to be shoed. The bolts have to be shoed. Not pulled. What happened in mine, it literally pulled them right out of the wall. Some it just pulled right through the plywood. The plywood just broke. You need a bigger washer or whatever. I had washers on there; but some of them, it was such a farce that it literally pulled holes in the plywood itself. Every one of my windows, which were inset into the window, and I used L shaped angle aluminum which I had installed permanently in the top and down at the bottom; none of those failed. I designed the same thing for my son’s house in Whispering Pines. None of those failed on it. I had an investment home in Whispering Pines right in the middle of one of these streak areas, and again, none of those failed. I’m sorry, one did fail; but it was totally destroyed... Provenzo: An L bolt like..? Sheets: Well, what you do is you take advantage of the strength of the window frame. For instance if you have concrete CBS, I’m exaggerating it. Here’s your window; here’s the roof. This is a side view. Awning type windows in particular have a very good framework, a strong framework. What you do is you put the plywood right up against that, inset it into there. First of all, you’re not going to get the wind in behind it. Then what I do is I mounted an aluminum angle, one and half to two inch aluminum angle and mounted it with the bolts in here (indicates). Now this stays up there permanently. This is painted, looks like part of the house; it’s there. This one here (indicates) is not permanent. But two bolts that are in here and it’s in. And my wife and daughter can put them up. Provenzo: Now, you can do that with a sliding glass door? Sheets: A sliding glass door is a little bit more difficult because you don’t normally have as much of an overhang. Also with sliding glass doors if you look at it from the top here now you have actually two sets. You have one set that’s sets in here like this (indicates). So you don’t have a nice flush mounting you can make all the way across, because this one sets back in, you know like that. So I’m going to relook at that. The way I had mine designed was that I used four bay sheets of plywood in these cases. The way I had it designed was that it went all the way to the floor. In the floor I had the mounting into the floor. There was a framework that came up against that into the floor. It was actually a two by two, if I remember correctly, which then holds that in. Now you’ve got about that much for flexing (indicates) because it has to flex to come out of that. Then I put bolts in the sides and lead anchors into the sides up to the wall. Then I put anchors into the wall up here (indicates). Well, these were the ones that failed, up here. This was not going to fail because that has to shear. I’m going to have to relook at how I do that. Either I’m going to have to put more of them in or put better ones in up there, I think. It’s difficult to set it in here, in my case. The framework itself at the top of the window comes almost flush to the outside of the wall for the second sliding door. The first one you can do that; but the second one is more difficult. Provenzo: It would be very interesting in this book to put an ? o preparedness. Sheets: Oh, I agree. Provenzo: I hadn’t thought of doing that before. This sort of thing would be great. Sheets: There are a lot of things like that. Well, there are simple things. Sliding glass door, putting a wedge in so it doesn’t jump out of the track. That’s something that should be done in any case. You just take a wedge that you block your door open, and you jam it in the top so it can’t lift up. Provenzo: O.K. We’ll come back on that. Sheets: Those are simple things that can be done on sliding doors. So that’s something you wedge right in at the top and it holds it down in place. Of course the pins keep it from lifting, the locks, but all of these are the kind of things that you can do. Markoff: There were so many checklists given out on the radio, yet I never heard that one. I’m fairly new to Florida; this was my first hurricane; and I took copious notes during the day as I was preparing my place in my own way, but I never heard that. I think there are a lot of things that you mentioned that I haven’t heard, even though I was listening to the radio all day long, and the T.V., and got as many hints as I could. Sheets: We’ve gone through with Dade County on their brochure and I think it’s probably one of the best ones now. Markoff: It’s put out by Dade County? Sheets: It’s actually cooperative with Dade County and the Red Cross and so on. I think that’s one of the better ones that’s out now, but there’s still a few things that...In fact, I have written another section which we’re now putting in other materials we’re putting together. Channel Seven is getting ready to do their brochure and I added this because of the wind problems. This is one of the things we’re going to put in the brochure. You see what we used to do with hurricanes, we were always responding to the water of course, and then trying to protect your house from the wind. But we really didn’t give people instructions very well as to what to do if your house starts to crumble around you. So that’s what this is. This says here’s what you should do when the house starts to fail around you. Markoff: You mentioned plywood quite a bit, which involves preparation before the hurricane. Sheets: It’s got to be done now. Markoff: Of course; and you have to have the plywood available. A lot of people didn’t take it seriously until there was none available. Sheets: You’ve got to have a design in place done now, not when the hurricane season starts. Provenzo: When I did it a year and a half before the storm, I bought out every available light bulb in Builder’s Square. Just me, one person, bought out every single light bulb in this size. Sheets: So that tells the story in itself. So that’s one of the main things that you want to cover is the fact that this is not something you do when the hurricane is out there. It’s too late. Markoff: And with your emphasis on plywood, I’m assuming that you also believe that taping your windows is of no avail, which is what I understood? Sheets: Essentially not. It’s more psychological than anything else. Markoff: When you say ’covering the house”, you don’t mean inside with cloths? A lot of people did that to prevent shattering. Sheets: No, I think certainly inside the house you would close all the drapes and things like that in case indeed the glass does break from some tile that comes through your plywood, because that’s going to happen; it happened at my house. The plywood stayed, but the window broke behind it. So you want to close drapes and things like that just to help cut the glass. I’ve got pictures from up in hurricane FrederickI think it was hurricane Frederick or Elena up in Alabamaof a complex with a child’s bedroom there, and the glass is embedded in the other wall. So clearly had the child been there in the room at the time there is a good chance that he would have been seriously injured, maybe dead. There are a lot of checklists. I give about a hundred talks a year on hurricanes. Maybe sometime you could come to one of those. One of the things I do not do at those sessions is go through the checklist. The reason is that people are going to forget it. So you literally need a checklist. What ought to be done in this community, which is not being doneand I’ve been trying to pressure Southern Bell to do thisis the same thing they’ve done over in the west coast of Florida; and that is in the telephone book it’s got the maps and it’s got all of these things; and it’s done in a quality print. It’s not the old cheap yellow page stuffand it’s there. It’s literally a checklist, and it’s a decision chart. It says, ’Do you live in a hurricane prone area?” Yes. ’Do you live in an area that’s going to need to be evacuated?” Yes. And then you just follow this chain down through there. It’s excellent. And Lee County has that. That might be something that you might want to try to copy. Provenzo: We could put it certainly into this book; but we could also make an argument, we could quote you right now and say ’Sheets says we should do the following:”... Sheets: I’ve been arguing against Southern Bell doing that for some time, and I’ve used those samples. But we’ve got it around many other areas now. It started in Lee County; it’s already up in Manatee county through the Tampa area; they’re doing it there; they’re doing it over in Galveston now, I think, and in some other places. I usually show the slides just to show what it looks like. It shows the evacuation routes and the checklist. Provenzo: What is your thought about this hurricane versus other ones that you’ve had experience with? Sheets: Third strongest in record. It’s by far the most devastating of any hurricane that I’ve looked at. I’ve looked at them all since ‘65. Even Camille. Camille was stronger. Camille had the same kind of devastation, but much more concentrated than what we have here. We’re talking about three hundred square miles of essentially devastation area. Fifteen miles inland, the only reason it stopped fifteen miles inland is because that’s where the property stopped; that’s where people stopped. That was the Everglades. Had people been on in, it would have been there. Somebody from the University of Miami went over to the southwest coast and is going to be here tomorrow and show us what happened over there in the mangroves on the southwest coast. There was tremendous damage over there. Provenzo: The storm continued eighty, ninety miles into the coastline? Sheets: All the way across. It was a category three hurricane when it exited the coastline. It was a category four when it entered and when it exited it was a category three. The airplane picked it up as it came off the coast. It was still a very powerful hurricane. Provenzo: So if this had hit the central part of the state, for example, where there’s a lot of population across the state? Sheets: You would have had tremendous damage right on through Orlando, for instance; you want to take in a lower area, Sebring, Lake Okeechobee, ... No, the damage would have been severe right on across. We’ve done a little analysis you saw probably in the Herald the analysis done by Steve ? By the way, he’s an excellent science writer too. He’s very thorough in his statistics in what he does. He uses a good scientific approach. He projected twenty miles farther north, using the 1992 tax rolls, property values. Where we had twenty billion plus in South Dade, we would have had three times that had the center been twenty miles farther north. And that’s a conservative number, because as you get downtown Miami, Miami Beach, Hallendale, Hollywood, you’ve got all the condos over there. And they would have been gutted just like the Burger King buildings. One of my big fears today is there are so many of those people that say there not going to leave out of those condos, stayed there during Andrew. Clearly had that storm been up there instead of the fourteen miles that we lost as a direct result of the hurricane, it would have been one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, depending upon how many people were in those condos, because they would have been gutted. That’s one of our concerns. I go up there as much as I can to try and influence what they’re doing. Provenzo: How would you prepare the condo area? Sheets: Number one is leave. The winds aloft are stronger than they are at the surface due to frictional effects there. I’ve got pictures again; of course the Burger King building is a good illustration of that. Two is the condos ought to have been required when they built them to have shudders built into them. It ought to have been part of the structure itself. And I’ve been advocating in South Dade and many other areas as well, that as you have a new community developing, particularly mobile homesright now the big argument is whether or now we should have mobile homes back in the communityPersonally I think we ought to because it’s a low cost, quality way of life. The only way I can see against it is the debris that that causes into the neighborhoods. So once you take from that in some way, you essentially let the insurance industry decide the insurance rates. And then somebody that chooses to live in a mobile home, then they do so because it is a very low cost, quality way of life. Provenzo: Can you design them so that they’re much better? Sheets: No. Not a whole lot better. You can improve them, yes. I think that’s probably the first key. You could probably improve them for another ten or twenty miles per hour without any great increase in expense. But they are low cost. So many retirees if you go up to the middle part of the state and the southwest part of the state, you find that they’re beautiful communities. They are beautiful ways of life for low to middle income people. There’s a comradery that occurs in those kinds of things. If you tried to live on that same level of income otherwise, you’d be living in slums. One is, let’s look at how we could try to improve the strength of the mobile home as much as we can. And second is of course to try to protect communities around you from the debris. And third is require the mobile home park to have a shelter on site that can be used by the people. And that’s not that expensive. All of them have community buildings. Build that building to a higher standard, with covers for the windows, etc., and you take refuge. That’s what we ought to be requiring every time we give a permit, so when Homestead or Dade County decides they’re going to open up a mobile home park again: yes you can open it up; here’s the provision: you must build an in place shelter for your residents. Markoff: Some of these suggestions are almost common sense...Hopefully in the aftermath of Andrew you’ll be more listened to, for example by Southern Bell and by the people that give permits. Sheets: Hopefully we can do that. There are a lot of things like that. You mentioned what can we do with condos. One of the things you can do is build into the condo a relatively inexpensive place of last refuge. It’ll be the community room on the second level, but it’s enclosed and encased and it’s there. If people do get trapped there, there’s a place to take refuge. The arguments against that is that it will encourage people to stay when you really want them to leave. That’s a legitimate argument. But the fact is there are going to be people who stay, and therefore you have to prepare for it. Key Biscayne, Miami Beach..we don’t have a plan. There is no plan for people on Key Biscayne that have not left. What if the causeway gets closed? What if the Florida Keys get cut off and people haven’t left? Where’s the plan that says ’here’s what you should be doing”. Now in the Keys they are doing it. This is the first place to ever do it. New Orleans is another place, no plan. Just as our plan is you’re all going to get out. You don’t out, hey you’re on your own. You get Miami Beach, you get the people trapped there and whatever it is, and the winds are starting to come up, the causeway system is closed, they’re there... and now we say ’sorry, folks; our plan was you were going to get out; now you’re on your own.” Markoff: Isn’t there an increased danger of that happening now; that people will try to flee immediately now when they hear the word ’hurricane”? Sheets: Very much. We’ve got the problem now that so many people who are inland are saying, ’I’m not going to be here when the next hurricane hits”. Well, if all these people evacuate that say they will here, it’s going to be total gridlock. No way are the Keys going to get out. No way are you going to get out of Key Biscayne or Miami Beach because they’re on the end of this whole chain and they are the most vulnerable. Yet they are the last ones that are going to possibly be able to get out. There are other things. As you go into other communities where a hurricane knocking down your house is an extremely rare event. Now should you pay the two, three or four percent extra to build your house to the standard that is on the coast? Should you pay the extra three to five percent to put up expensive shutters? That’s a decision the individual could make, but an alternative could be what we do in tornado country which is that in the house there is a hardened room. That hardened room doesn’t cost much. Maybe that’s five hundred dollars. When you build the housemaybe it’s the kitchen, bathroom, whatever. Those have been designed in the Midwest for tornados. Texas Tech has a complete house plan as to how you design that house. All the national weather forecast offices around the country are all being designed with a hardened room, so if the thing starts to fail you can all go to that place. Now the National Hurricane Center is designed so the entire building is that. There are a lot of things that could be done and they’re much easier to do as you develop. The state of Florida continues to grow very rapidly. You could put that in as part of the permitting process, and it’s designed right in the house. The only arguments against that along the coast is that you encourage people not to leave. But the fact is there are going to be people there so you ought to build them in. Provenzo: What do you think is the most important to do in the future? Sheets: We’ve got to learn from what we’ve just been through. These are not new lessons. We had them in Hugo, some of them, not nearly as extensive as what we have down here. But we need to learn from those an do the things that we’re talking about. Not just talk about them but put them into legislation. The county has done that. They just passed the ordinance to improve the codes. But that’s not the total answer; you still need all the other things that should be done. That’s for the future. Now’s the time to put some diagrams in the newspapers to show you how to install plywood shutters, and how inexpensive it is. Provenzo: People think they are knowledgeable because they’ve gone through Andrew, but the thing is that this was a dry storm. Sheets: It was slow moving. I mean it was fast moving which meant that the total rainfall in the storm was relatively small. There were seven inches of rain in the north eye wall. And it was raining as hard as it does in any hurricane in that eye wall. The point was that it wasn’t over here long enough to accumulate tremendous fifteen, twenty inches of rain. Also, north of the storm, it did not have major rain bends so that essentially it was an eye wall storm in the sense that there were not major rain bends outside of that area and so you didn’t get as much accumulation of rainfall. (Referring to a map) That’s the eye wall and the map of the eye wall as it came across. But right here it’s raining as hard as it ever rains in any hurricane, in fact harder than most. But the period of time that that’s over you as it moved through is not very large. And then it didn’t have strong wind bounds out here that followed or preceded it so you didn’t get a whole lot of rain. Indeed, flooding was at a minimum as a result of that. Also it didn’t have the strong winds weltering up like Hugo. If this had had the structure of Hugo we’d have had massive damage all the way through Palm Beach. It wouldn’t have stopped at 104th, for instance. We’d have had massive damage up through Miami Beach and so on. Just as it was all the way through Myrtle Beach in South Carolina, from Charleston on all the way up. Provenzo: That’s very interesting. I don’t want to hold you up in terms of your other meeting. What I think we’ll do is go through this interview and maybe what we’ll need to do is come back and do some pick up stuff, if that’s okay.
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